Re: Snooping again
Posted by
Andrew Werby
on 1999-09-01 04:46:23 UTC
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:34:39 +0200
From: "Arne Chr. Jorgensen" <instel@...>
Subject: snooping again
Okay, so I would like to ask you something.
1. CAD:
What is the best programs for doing this ? ( any platforms )
["Best" is a subjective judgement, depending on what you're trying to do
and your
circumstances. If price is no object, you're modeling simple objects, and
you can
learn any interface effortlessly, then there are a lot more choices. Since
I'm a frugal
type, with a short patience curve, but want to do relatively complex curvy
sorts of
things, this narrowed it down for me. My number-one favorite modeler is
Rhino- I
started with it in its long period as a free beta program, and was so
impressed with
it by the time it was released that I signed up to be a reseller. Some
other programs
that are also worth considering are Form-Z from auto-des-sys, (especially for
architectural projects), SolidThinking from Gestel (which though similar,
has a few
features Rhino lacks), and SolidEdge from MicroPlus (good for complex
parametric
machine assemblages.) I sell Rhino, I have no association with Form-Z, but
I might
be able to get a deal on Solid-Thinking or Solid-Edge, if someone's
interested. These
are all considerably more expensive than Rhino, however.]
What do you use it for ?
[I've been using Rhino in my quest to incorporate the surface information
of various
natural forms into sculptural compositions on various scales. It is
particularly nice that
it accomodates both laser-scanned surfaces and the MicroScribe touch-probe,
so I
can get the data into it in several ways.]
What formats is best to use ?
[Rhino uses NURBS (Non-Uniform Rational B-Splines) in its native 3dm
format, which is
a more economical and accurate way to represent curves and curved surfaces
than the
polygon formats (STL, DXF, 3DS, etc.) used by most CAD programs. It can,
however,
convert NURBS to any of these formats for export.]
What do you need in such a program ?
[I needed something that would accept data from various sources, allow me to
manipulate it without choking, and would export a machinable model to a CAM
program.]
// Ok, this may sound stupid, but I would like to find something
that I could use under Linux, - and I don't want to spend a lot of
money.
// The stuff I have been doing, was not any fancy 3d shapes, so I
don't have a clue how you work the CAD package.
// I know my questions are difficult, - but how should I find out
?
// You need circles, lines, - what more ?
[Well, if you're happy with circles and lines, then you shouldn't have too
much trouble
finding a cheap package that works for you. The only one I know of that
works in Linux
is Blender, but it's freeware unless you want the manual and some extra
features they've
cooked up lately. With all that, it's about $150. You can download it from
<http://www.blender.nl>. It has animation capabilities and what's supposed
to be a pretty
good renderer. I haven't had a chance to play with it myself, though.]
// Then what is the interface to a CAM package ?
// I know AutoCad can output IGES and DXF + hpgl.
[Most 3d CAM programs use either DXF or STL. HPGL is only for 2d plots.]
//---------------------------------------------
// Okay, here is what: Think of it as a wish list. What would you
like to have ?
// Then what user interface do you like ?
[Simple and intuitive?]
2. CAM:
What is the best programs for doing this ? ( any platforms )
[I've been using DeskProto, and I'm a reseller for them. It makes the
process of converting
a part file (in DXF, STL, or VRML) about as automatic as can be, which is a
plus for me,
although other people, like those doing machine parts, might want more
control. For folks
like this, I've been investigating a program called Visual Mill, from
MecSoft. It has pocketing
routines to generate areas with absolutely vertical walls (DeskProto has
trouble with this), it
has a very nice preview function which shows the toolpath in action, and is
generally more
controllable than DeskProto, at the cost of simplicity. If anybody's
interested in it, let me know-
I might be able to negotiate a favorable price.]
I have never used any
programs in this category, but I guess the basic thing is
// to produce G-codes. What else ?
// Does it show a part, - do you set cuts, or what ?
[Right- in DeskProto you import your part, scale it to fit your machine,
establish the segment
of the part you wish to work on, decide whether or not to take a roughing
pass, choose or
define the toolbits you wish to use, set the fineness of the cut and the
stepover distance, choose
a strategy like spiraling out from the center or meandering from one edge,
then it does the
rest, writing a tool-path in g-code.]
3 PACKAGES:
Is there any free programs to test ?
[Rhino has a demo available at their site <http://www.Rhino3d.com> good for
a limited number
of saves. Deskproto has a time-limited demo at <http://www.deskproto.com>.
The rest of the
programs I mentioned above (except Blender) provide demos that are more
seriously disabled.]
Is there any place I can pick up on the subject ?
[This list is a good one- aside from that there are newsgroups on the
Usenet like alt.3d,
comp.graphics.animation, etc.]
Last, - what do you think about the future ? Will you turn the parts
around as 3d solids, - a lump of clay you just twist and mold -
instead of drawing all the seperate lines ? That is, - would the
way I would work in AutoCad r10 or 12, be outdated ? Is there
better design tools ?
//ARNE
[Even Autocad r14 is outdated, in my opinion. Try Rhino, it's a lot easier
to use and more
powerful too. You can, as you mentioned, turn the shaded parts around and
see what you've
got, and simple entities can be twisted, bent, and distorted in various
ways. But this is the
present- the future is another question entirely.
Recently (at the Siggraph show) I got to play briefly with a device that
really does make a
big leap toward a more intutive way of modeling on the computer. This was
the FreeForm
modeling system from SensAble Technologies
<http://www.sensable.com/freeform> Using
force-feedback, or "haptics" as it's called, one has the sensation of
actually touching the
model as one works on it. This does away with a lot of the disorientation
inevitable in trying
to manipulate 3d objects in a 2-d view, which is a problem that has been a
major difficulty
in the way of implementing a "clay-like" interface. The device works using
a small
articulated arm device, much like a digitizing arm, which one holds and
moves around
freely, within the limits of its range. When one encounters a part of the
model, however, the
arm stiffens directionally or stops, depending on the tool (additive or
subtractive ones in
various shapes are provided in the integrated software package) and the
specified softness
of the "clay" being worked. I was very impressed by their implementation of
this rather
advanced concept, and I'm trying to talk the company into letting me
represent them- perhaps
I'll be successful in this and will be able to offer their system at a
discount sometime soon. In
any case, this is the most futuristic modeling tool I've come across.]
Andrew Werby
http://www.computersculpture.com
Andrew Werby - United Artworks
Sculpture, Jewelry, and Other Art Stuff
http://unitedartworks.com
Date: Tue, 31 Aug 1999 20:34:39 +0200
From: "Arne Chr. Jorgensen" <instel@...>
Subject: snooping again
Okay, so I would like to ask you something.
1. CAD:
What is the best programs for doing this ? ( any platforms )
["Best" is a subjective judgement, depending on what you're trying to do
and your
circumstances. If price is no object, you're modeling simple objects, and
you can
learn any interface effortlessly, then there are a lot more choices. Since
I'm a frugal
type, with a short patience curve, but want to do relatively complex curvy
sorts of
things, this narrowed it down for me. My number-one favorite modeler is
Rhino- I
started with it in its long period as a free beta program, and was so
impressed with
it by the time it was released that I signed up to be a reseller. Some
other programs
that are also worth considering are Form-Z from auto-des-sys, (especially for
architectural projects), SolidThinking from Gestel (which though similar,
has a few
features Rhino lacks), and SolidEdge from MicroPlus (good for complex
parametric
machine assemblages.) I sell Rhino, I have no association with Form-Z, but
I might
be able to get a deal on Solid-Thinking or Solid-Edge, if someone's
interested. These
are all considerably more expensive than Rhino, however.]
What do you use it for ?
[I've been using Rhino in my quest to incorporate the surface information
of various
natural forms into sculptural compositions on various scales. It is
particularly nice that
it accomodates both laser-scanned surfaces and the MicroScribe touch-probe,
so I
can get the data into it in several ways.]
What formats is best to use ?
[Rhino uses NURBS (Non-Uniform Rational B-Splines) in its native 3dm
format, which is
a more economical and accurate way to represent curves and curved surfaces
than the
polygon formats (STL, DXF, 3DS, etc.) used by most CAD programs. It can,
however,
convert NURBS to any of these formats for export.]
What do you need in such a program ?
[I needed something that would accept data from various sources, allow me to
manipulate it without choking, and would export a machinable model to a CAM
program.]
// Ok, this may sound stupid, but I would like to find something
that I could use under Linux, - and I don't want to spend a lot of
money.
// The stuff I have been doing, was not any fancy 3d shapes, so I
don't have a clue how you work the CAD package.
// I know my questions are difficult, - but how should I find out
?
// You need circles, lines, - what more ?
[Well, if you're happy with circles and lines, then you shouldn't have too
much trouble
finding a cheap package that works for you. The only one I know of that
works in Linux
is Blender, but it's freeware unless you want the manual and some extra
features they've
cooked up lately. With all that, it's about $150. You can download it from
<http://www.blender.nl>. It has animation capabilities and what's supposed
to be a pretty
good renderer. I haven't had a chance to play with it myself, though.]
// Then what is the interface to a CAM package ?
// I know AutoCad can output IGES and DXF + hpgl.
[Most 3d CAM programs use either DXF or STL. HPGL is only for 2d plots.]
//---------------------------------------------
// Okay, here is what: Think of it as a wish list. What would you
like to have ?
// Then what user interface do you like ?
[Simple and intuitive?]
2. CAM:
What is the best programs for doing this ? ( any platforms )
[I've been using DeskProto, and I'm a reseller for them. It makes the
process of converting
a part file (in DXF, STL, or VRML) about as automatic as can be, which is a
plus for me,
although other people, like those doing machine parts, might want more
control. For folks
like this, I've been investigating a program called Visual Mill, from
MecSoft. It has pocketing
routines to generate areas with absolutely vertical walls (DeskProto has
trouble with this), it
has a very nice preview function which shows the toolpath in action, and is
generally more
controllable than DeskProto, at the cost of simplicity. If anybody's
interested in it, let me know-
I might be able to negotiate a favorable price.]
I have never used any
programs in this category, but I guess the basic thing is
// to produce G-codes. What else ?
// Does it show a part, - do you set cuts, or what ?
[Right- in DeskProto you import your part, scale it to fit your machine,
establish the segment
of the part you wish to work on, decide whether or not to take a roughing
pass, choose or
define the toolbits you wish to use, set the fineness of the cut and the
stepover distance, choose
a strategy like spiraling out from the center or meandering from one edge,
then it does the
rest, writing a tool-path in g-code.]
3 PACKAGES:
Is there any free programs to test ?
[Rhino has a demo available at their site <http://www.Rhino3d.com> good for
a limited number
of saves. Deskproto has a time-limited demo at <http://www.deskproto.com>.
The rest of the
programs I mentioned above (except Blender) provide demos that are more
seriously disabled.]
Is there any place I can pick up on the subject ?
[This list is a good one- aside from that there are newsgroups on the
Usenet like alt.3d,
comp.graphics.animation, etc.]
Last, - what do you think about the future ? Will you turn the parts
around as 3d solids, - a lump of clay you just twist and mold -
instead of drawing all the seperate lines ? That is, - would the
way I would work in AutoCad r10 or 12, be outdated ? Is there
better design tools ?
//ARNE
[Even Autocad r14 is outdated, in my opinion. Try Rhino, it's a lot easier
to use and more
powerful too. You can, as you mentioned, turn the shaded parts around and
see what you've
got, and simple entities can be twisted, bent, and distorted in various
ways. But this is the
present- the future is another question entirely.
Recently (at the Siggraph show) I got to play briefly with a device that
really does make a
big leap toward a more intutive way of modeling on the computer. This was
the FreeForm
modeling system from SensAble Technologies
<http://www.sensable.com/freeform> Using
force-feedback, or "haptics" as it's called, one has the sensation of
actually touching the
model as one works on it. This does away with a lot of the disorientation
inevitable in trying
to manipulate 3d objects in a 2-d view, which is a problem that has been a
major difficulty
in the way of implementing a "clay-like" interface. The device works using
a small
articulated arm device, much like a digitizing arm, which one holds and
moves around
freely, within the limits of its range. When one encounters a part of the
model, however, the
arm stiffens directionally or stops, depending on the tool (additive or
subtractive ones in
various shapes are provided in the integrated software package) and the
specified softness
of the "clay" being worked. I was very impressed by their implementation of
this rather
advanced concept, and I'm trying to talk the company into letting me
represent them- perhaps
I'll be successful in this and will be able to offer their system at a
discount sometime soon. In
any case, this is the most futuristic modeling tool I've come across.]
Andrew Werby
http://www.computersculpture.com
Andrew Werby - United Artworks
Sculpture, Jewelry, and Other Art Stuff
http://unitedartworks.com