Product pricing and technical design for hobbyists
Posted by
Peter
on 2002-02-15 08:07:32 UTC
Following on from Dash's Linear Slide pricing comments, I don't agree
that the distribution system is "hideously inefficient". I see the
manufacturer's web site as THE place for detailed technical and design
information and to a lesser degree as a source for pricing. (Prices are
available on line - you just have to dig a bit i.e. go to a different
source.) Ideally the manufacturer's web site should list all
"authorised" distributors with links, if possible. This is because many
products and regions (countries) have to carry different pricing
structures to account for taxes, duties, local technical support
overhead, inventory carrying costs etc... Historically, companies don't
want to share their pricing structures with their competitors even
though their competitors will know. Also, motion control and electronic
components (slides, steppers, servo motors, ball screws, Geckos etc.)
are very specialised products that have books of math formulas to
support their static and dynamic operation. It always takes multiple
sources of information to fill in all the "design" blanks.
Many distributors are just order takers but some carry inventory and are
able to provide local technical support and share experience and point
one in the right direction if design integration problems arise. This
newsgroup provides an even broader information sharing resourse than
many distributors but is not appropriate for commercial design support -
although many of the same issues are discussed.
Keep in mind these component companies exist to provide products and
support for OEM's (Original Equipment Manufacturers) primarily and not
to hobbyists who purchase 1's and 2's (or 3's). Even Mariss requires the
OEM volumes to support his excellent products and be able to afford to
provide the level of support he does. His pricing strategy is very
favourable for OEM's and hobbiests - but that is not always the case.
You don't have to buy from the local distributor - there are other
options. I've been based in Canada for 15 yrs and before that in
Australia and I find the efficiency and size of the North American
marketplace to be a wonderful place to design and build "stuff" both
personally and professionally - as compared to Oz. I've always looked
for a good deal often leading to purchases from sources in the U.S.
rather than just local distribution but one has to recognise the cost of
one's time. A hobbiyist can afford to invest more time to save some
bucks. A company engineer tasked with sourcing 100 or 500 items can
only afford to invest a finite amount of time getting the best deals for
each item. Distributors help bridge this procurement time gap. And they
cover their costs in an incremental product mark-up.
In previous lives, as an OEM, I have dealt directly with some parts
companies and with technically savvy and very helpful local distributors
in other cases. Pricing is a very complex issue and most products on
the planet have a "list" price followed by a discount structure which
allows for discretion in arriving at a final price based on competitors
bids, short term/long term volume potential, phase of the moon etc. Many
times we would explicitly purchase through a particular distributor
(particularly if they had excelled with support during the design phase)
to reward them for their technical support, local presence etc. Other
times a component would be put out to competitive bids. My point is
that pricing for the same widget is very variable - look at gas prices
or vegetable prices - they are all over the place on a given day! It is
the buyers responsibility to shop around. (Recently, I had a local
authorised Canadian distributor quote C$100 and 3 weeks for a gas spring
that I could buy for US$14 and 24 hours from McMaster - I just smiled
and took my business elsewhere.)
Even in a big OEM company, part of the diligent engineer's job is to
ferret out the deals (while balancing the cost of his time) and in
countless cases purchasing small quantities of parts from the Reid Tools
and McMasters of the world is dramatically cheaper (price and lead time)
than going through the distribution channel. We often checked the Reid
Tools and McMasters online pricing when developing a budgetary build
cost - knowing that we could usually get better pricing as the volumes
grew - but not always. (McMaster reflects volume purchasing in its unit
pricing.)
Don't get discouraged by the existing pricing and distribution channels.
When you have time, just shop around (including Ebay) until you find
the best value in the available time. Also, as you get more experience,
you realise that re-inventing the (insert black box here...) "wheel"
might be fun, but it ultimately takes you away from building cool CNC
setups and cutting metal or plastic and making stuff! Unless designing
a new controller is the goal - which is fine, too.
Hope this post provides some insights, sorry for the length.
Cheers, Peter
the_dutros wrote:
that the distribution system is "hideously inefficient". I see the
manufacturer's web site as THE place for detailed technical and design
information and to a lesser degree as a source for pricing. (Prices are
available on line - you just have to dig a bit i.e. go to a different
source.) Ideally the manufacturer's web site should list all
"authorised" distributors with links, if possible. This is because many
products and regions (countries) have to carry different pricing
structures to account for taxes, duties, local technical support
overhead, inventory carrying costs etc... Historically, companies don't
want to share their pricing structures with their competitors even
though their competitors will know. Also, motion control and electronic
components (slides, steppers, servo motors, ball screws, Geckos etc.)
are very specialised products that have books of math formulas to
support their static and dynamic operation. It always takes multiple
sources of information to fill in all the "design" blanks.
Many distributors are just order takers but some carry inventory and are
able to provide local technical support and share experience and point
one in the right direction if design integration problems arise. This
newsgroup provides an even broader information sharing resourse than
many distributors but is not appropriate for commercial design support -
although many of the same issues are discussed.
Keep in mind these component companies exist to provide products and
support for OEM's (Original Equipment Manufacturers) primarily and not
to hobbyists who purchase 1's and 2's (or 3's). Even Mariss requires the
OEM volumes to support his excellent products and be able to afford to
provide the level of support he does. His pricing strategy is very
favourable for OEM's and hobbiests - but that is not always the case.
You don't have to buy from the local distributor - there are other
options. I've been based in Canada for 15 yrs and before that in
Australia and I find the efficiency and size of the North American
marketplace to be a wonderful place to design and build "stuff" both
personally and professionally - as compared to Oz. I've always looked
for a good deal often leading to purchases from sources in the U.S.
rather than just local distribution but one has to recognise the cost of
one's time. A hobbiyist can afford to invest more time to save some
bucks. A company engineer tasked with sourcing 100 or 500 items can
only afford to invest a finite amount of time getting the best deals for
each item. Distributors help bridge this procurement time gap. And they
cover their costs in an incremental product mark-up.
In previous lives, as an OEM, I have dealt directly with some parts
companies and with technically savvy and very helpful local distributors
in other cases. Pricing is a very complex issue and most products on
the planet have a "list" price followed by a discount structure which
allows for discretion in arriving at a final price based on competitors
bids, short term/long term volume potential, phase of the moon etc. Many
times we would explicitly purchase through a particular distributor
(particularly if they had excelled with support during the design phase)
to reward them for their technical support, local presence etc. Other
times a component would be put out to competitive bids. My point is
that pricing for the same widget is very variable - look at gas prices
or vegetable prices - they are all over the place on a given day! It is
the buyers responsibility to shop around. (Recently, I had a local
authorised Canadian distributor quote C$100 and 3 weeks for a gas spring
that I could buy for US$14 and 24 hours from McMaster - I just smiled
and took my business elsewhere.)
Even in a big OEM company, part of the diligent engineer's job is to
ferret out the deals (while balancing the cost of his time) and in
countless cases purchasing small quantities of parts from the Reid Tools
and McMasters of the world is dramatically cheaper (price and lead time)
than going through the distribution channel. We often checked the Reid
Tools and McMasters online pricing when developing a budgetary build
cost - knowing that we could usually get better pricing as the volumes
grew - but not always. (McMaster reflects volume purchasing in its unit
pricing.)
Don't get discouraged by the existing pricing and distribution channels.
When you have time, just shop around (including Ebay) until you find
the best value in the available time. Also, as you get more experience,
you realise that re-inventing the (insert black box here...) "wheel"
might be fun, but it ultimately takes you away from building cool CNC
setups and cutting metal or plastic and making stuff! Unless designing
a new controller is the goal - which is fine, too.
Hope this post provides some insights, sorry for the length.
Cheers, Peter
the_dutros wrote:
> The problem is that this market has not embraced the internet yet,
> insted preferring to use the hideously inefficient "distributor"
> model. As it is with ball screws and step motors, you can fing the
> manufacturer, who will be glad to point you to a distributor, who
> will be glad to give you a "quote."
>
> The biggest falacy is that even places that manufacturer products
> that use these items don't buy in quantities much larger than
> a "hobbiest" would.
>
> I have been watching this sort of discussion for some time, and am
> about to propose a "solution."
>
> -DASH
>
> --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@y..., "John H." <johnhe-uk@s...> wrote:
>
>>Oky Doky, I'm now giving up my search on the Holey Grail of sites
>>
> that lists
>
>>prices and not just model numbers.
>>I'm looking for a very, very, rough idea of how much a 1000 -
>>
> 1200mm linear
>
>>slide would be to carry anything over 5 - 15kilos. Infact, has
>>
> anyone seen a
>
>>site selling linear rails, slides, bearings etc with prices on it?
>>
> Or is
>
>>this a "If you've got to ask you can't afford it" thing. [John gets
>>
> his
>
>>oxygen mask ready for the replies]
>>
>>John H.
>>
>
>
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