Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Digest Number 4457
Posted by
B B
on 2005-10-15 15:13:54 UTC
Hi everyone,
I'm needing the Kavo 4444 HF Converter to operate the spindle 4025 of T-Tech Quick Circuit 7000HS Prototyper.
Please let me know.
Thanks so much.
Bao.
CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com wrote:There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "Blue"
2. emc2 BDI-4.xx
From: Thos J Powderly
3. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: Jon Elson
4. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: Jon Elson
5. Re: emc2 BDI-4.xx
From: Paul
6. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
7. Re: Waterjet - HomeBrew
From: "rolandfriestad"
8. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "turbulatordude"
9. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "Paul Kelly"
10. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
11. Re: Kavo spindle inverter
From: "vutranvy"
12. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "Paul Kelly"
13. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: Jon Elson
14. Re: Re: Waterjet - HomeBrew
From: Jon Elson
15. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
16. Re: Stepper Motor Driver - Zoltar
From: "turbulatordude"
17. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
18. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver - Zoltar
From: "Paul Kelly"
19. Re: Re: Waterjet - HomeBrew
From: stuart dean
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:01:09 +0100
From: "Blue"
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
Hi,
Nice to know, Isure won't deal with someone who doesn't play the game
fairly.
Regards,
Terry
| yah...the guy has the clever idea that it's the way to
| finance his business by not paying suppliers til he
| sells the stock he bought. And dragging it out as long
| as possible even after.
| 5 of those kits, including the stepper controllers
| were mine. once he was able to bankrupt me (that part
| of my business, at least) he offered me a dime on the
| dollar.
| i finally got 1000$ each for the 'rights', but that
| sure was the end of dealing with him.
| quite apart from the fact that charging 40$ for
| something i sold at 12 is offensive to me.
|
| --- Blue wrote:
|
| > Hi,
| >
| > I thank you for the offer but I'm sure I can build
| > it with strip-board. I
| > take it this company has upset you?
| >
| > Regards,
| >
| > Terry
| >
| >
| > | no, it will not self destruct.
| > | the international rectifier hexfets have a built
| > in
| > | reverse diode that will handle FULL LOAD CURRENT.
| > | they are sweet chips.
| > | However, irfz is NOT the right choice - use
| > IRLZ54.
| > | these are made to run on logic level input.
| > | digikey has them.
| > | if you want a nicer circuit that's about as
| > simple,
| > | grab the pdf from this link.
| > | http://robotstore.com/catalog/display.asp?pid=63
| > | (i do not endorse this company. in fact, before
| > you
| > | buy that kit from em, i'd rather send you boards
| > for
| > | free!)
| > |
| > |
| > | --- Jon Elson wrote:
| > |
| > | > Blue wrote:
| > | >
| > | > >Hi,
| > | > >
| > | > >I thinking of buying this kit in the link
| > below.
| > | > Could one of you
| > | > >electronics people look at the link and tell me
| > if
| > | > I need resistors in
| > | > >series with the motor connections and if so
| > where
| > | > and what sizes and
| > | > >wattage.
| > | > >
| > | >
| > |
| >
| >http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/kit-files/3000/3179.pdf
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > This drive will operate the resistance-limited
| > | > motors found in floppy
| > | > drives,
| > | > etc. It is of no use on any motor above size
| > 17, as
| > | > it will self
| > | > destruct due
| > | > to the motor's inductance, which they made no
| > | > provisions to handle. You
| > | > will also have to supply very large (100 Watt+)
| > | > resistors to limit motor
| > | > current. The performance of this driver will be
| > | > abominable at any speed
| > | > above zero. You will be lucky to get it up to
| > 60
| > | > RPM before the motors
| > | > stall.
| > | >
| > | > Jon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 17:09:54 -0500
From: Thos J Powderly
Subject: emc2 BDI-4.xx
I want to get emc2 and halcope to try custom mcodes
I followed all the recent notices about BDI3.25,6,7,8,9,30
that fixed (god knows what it fixed after all this confusion,
paul did something for les watts's hiccups at quadrants )
I tried to install almost every one of those rapid fire revisions
and after each install, read about a newer one.
then 4.30 finally installs
and emc2 wont configure
and I find this teensy note on sourceforge as the reason why emc2 wont
configure
John K sez emc2 wont build with the current 2.6 kernel
well that note was from 2004
is it still true?
I did an anonymous checkout today & then ( as opposed to the notes on
Linuxcnc.org which have you in the wrong directory... )
cd src
./configure
results in...
checking for /usr/src/kernel-source-2.6.12.6-magma/include/linux/version.h
usability... no
presence... no
well. it's some use of the word presence that i'm not familiar with,
cuz I went there & read the dang thing
what version BDI do I downgrade to to get emc2 to build? AND have Halcmd and
Halscope working? What kernel version is neccesary? Any other caveats?
TomP
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 17:06:13 -0500
From: Jon Elson
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
juan gelt wrote:
at 20 V power supply, when the drive steps, the transistor that is
turning off will be exposed to about 40 V plus the inductive
turnoff on the leakage inductance, which is hard to predict. It
will force the transistors into avalanche breakdown. This is a
rough abuse of the transistors. A freewheeling diode connected
to return this current to the power supply would be a good addition
to the circuit.
idea. It still doesn't have the freewheeling diodes, though.
Jon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 17:14:37 -0500
From: Jon Elson
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
Jon Elson wrote:
a 20 Ohm 25 W resistor would be fine. The power supply would still need to
deliver ~40 x 3 = 120 W even at idle.
Jon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:35:12 +0100
From: Paul
Subject: Re: emc2 BDI-4.xx
Hi Tom
I'm needing the Kavo 4444 HF Converter to operate the spindle 4025 of T-Tech Quick Circuit 7000HS Prototyper.
Please let me know.
Thanks so much.
Bao.
CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com wrote:There are 19 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "Blue"
2. emc2 BDI-4.xx
From: Thos J Powderly
3. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: Jon Elson
4. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: Jon Elson
5. Re: emc2 BDI-4.xx
From: Paul
6. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
7. Re: Waterjet - HomeBrew
From: "rolandfriestad"
8. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "turbulatordude"
9. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "Paul Kelly"
10. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
11. Re: Kavo spindle inverter
From: "vutranvy"
12. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: "Paul Kelly"
13. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: Jon Elson
14. Re: Re: Waterjet - HomeBrew
From: Jon Elson
15. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
16. Re: Stepper Motor Driver - Zoltar
From: "turbulatordude"
17. Re: Stepper Motor Driver
From: juan gelt
18. RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver - Zoltar
From: "Paul Kelly"
19. Re: Re: Waterjet - HomeBrew
From: stuart dean
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 1
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:01:09 +0100
From: "Blue"
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
Hi,
Nice to know, Isure won't deal with someone who doesn't play the game
fairly.
Regards,
Terry
| yah...the guy has the clever idea that it's the way to
| finance his business by not paying suppliers til he
| sells the stock he bought. And dragging it out as long
| as possible even after.
| 5 of those kits, including the stepper controllers
| were mine. once he was able to bankrupt me (that part
| of my business, at least) he offered me a dime on the
| dollar.
| i finally got 1000$ each for the 'rights', but that
| sure was the end of dealing with him.
| quite apart from the fact that charging 40$ for
| something i sold at 12 is offensive to me.
|
| --- Blue wrote:
|
| > Hi,
| >
| > I thank you for the offer but I'm sure I can build
| > it with strip-board. I
| > take it this company has upset you?
| >
| > Regards,
| >
| > Terry
| >
| >
| > | no, it will not self destruct.
| > | the international rectifier hexfets have a built
| > in
| > | reverse diode that will handle FULL LOAD CURRENT.
| > | they are sweet chips.
| > | However, irfz is NOT the right choice - use
| > IRLZ54.
| > | these are made to run on logic level input.
| > | digikey has them.
| > | if you want a nicer circuit that's about as
| > simple,
| > | grab the pdf from this link.
| > | http://robotstore.com/catalog/display.asp?pid=63
| > | (i do not endorse this company. in fact, before
| > you
| > | buy that kit from em, i'd rather send you boards
| > for
| > | free!)
| > |
| > |
| > | --- Jon Elson wrote:
| > |
| > | > Blue wrote:
| > | >
| > | > >Hi,
| > | > >
| > | > >I thinking of buying this kit in the link
| > below.
| > | > Could one of you
| > | > >electronics people look at the link and tell me
| > if
| > | > I need resistors in
| > | > >series with the motor connections and if so
| > where
| > | > and what sizes and
| > | > >wattage.
| > | > >
| > | >
| > |
| >
| >http://www.electronic-kits-and-projects.com/kit-files/3000/3179.pdf
| > | > >
| > | > >
| > | > This drive will operate the resistance-limited
| > | > motors found in floppy
| > | > drives,
| > | > etc. It is of no use on any motor above size
| > 17, as
| > | > it will self
| > | > destruct due
| > | > to the motor's inductance, which they made no
| > | > provisions to handle. You
| > | > will also have to supply very large (100 Watt+)
| > | > resistors to limit motor
| > | > current. The performance of this driver will be
| > | > abominable at any speed
| > | > above zero. You will be lucky to get it up to
| > 60
| > | > RPM before the motors
| > | > stall.
| > | >
| > | > Jon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 2
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 17:09:54 -0500
From: Thos J Powderly
Subject: emc2 BDI-4.xx
I want to get emc2 and halcope to try custom mcodes
I followed all the recent notices about BDI3.25,6,7,8,9,30
that fixed (god knows what it fixed after all this confusion,
paul did something for les watts's hiccups at quadrants )
I tried to install almost every one of those rapid fire revisions
and after each install, read about a newer one.
then 4.30 finally installs
and emc2 wont configure
and I find this teensy note on sourceforge as the reason why emc2 wont
configure
John K sez emc2 wont build with the current 2.6 kernel
well that note was from 2004
is it still true?
I did an anonymous checkout today & then ( as opposed to the notes on
Linuxcnc.org which have you in the wrong directory... )
cd src
./configure
results in...
checking for /usr/src/kernel-source-2.6.12.6-magma/include/linux/version.h
usability... no
presence... no
well. it's some use of the word presence that i'm not familiar with,
cuz I went there & read the dang thing
what version BDI do I downgrade to to get emc2 to build? AND have Halcmd and
Halscope working? What kernel version is neccesary? Any other caveats?
TomP
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 3
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 17:06:13 -0500
From: Jon Elson
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
juan gelt wrote:
>no, it will not self destruct.The diodes will never be called on to conduct. The problem is that
>the international rectifier hexfets have a built in
>reverse diode that will handle FULL LOAD CURRENT.
>
at 20 V power supply, when the drive steps, the transistor that is
turning off will be exposed to about 40 V plus the inductive
turnoff on the leakage inductance, which is hard to predict. It
will force the transistors into avalanche breakdown. This is a
rough abuse of the transistors. A freewheeling diode connected
to return this current to the power supply would be a good addition
to the circuit.
>However, irfz is NOT the right choice - use IRLZ54.Yes, this is a good point.
>
>these are made to run on logic level input.A better circuit for a number of reasons. The opto-isolation is a good
>digikey has them.
>if you want a nicer circuit that's about as simple,
>grab the pdf from this link.
>http://robotstore.com/catalog/display.asp?pid=63
>
idea. It still doesn't have the freewheeling diodes, though.
Jon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 4
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 17:14:37 -0500
From: Jon Elson
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
Jon Elson wrote:
>Blue wrote:Oh oh! I made a mistake there. It would only be 19 W per resistor. Maybe
>
>
>
>>Hi,
>>
>>I was going to use this driver with 50oz motors of 1 amp using a power
>>supply of about 20 volts. The machine would be quite small for
>>drilling/routing circuit boards.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>Well, you would need to add resistors. A 1 Amp/winding motor would not
>have a 20 Ohm winding resistance, or it would go up in flames.
>So, you would need to add 2 resistors of about 19 Ohms (assuming the
>motor drops about 1 V at 1 A) at 360 W. Each motor/drive combination
>would need 720 W from the power supply, so a 3-axis system would draw
>over 2 KW!
>
>
a 20 Ohm 25 W resistor would be fine. The power supply would still need to
deliver ~40 x 3 = 120 W even at idle.
Jon
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 5
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 23:35:12 +0100
From: Paul
Subject: Re: emc2 BDI-4.xx
Hi Tom
On Saturday 01 October 2005 23:09, Thos J Powderly wrote:
> I followed all the recent notices about BDI3.25,6,7,8,9,30
> that fixed (god knows what it fixed after all this confusion,
> paul did something for les watts's hiccups at quadrants )
>
> I tried to install almost every one of those rapid fire revisions
> and after each install, read about a newer one.
There was no need to download and reinstall from the CD every time. You could
have used apt-get to upgrade just the packages that had changed..
Alternatively, you could have used the upgrade.sh script on the 4.30 CD..
> then 4.30 finally installs
> and emc2 wont configure
> and I find this teensy note on sourceforge as the reason why emc2 wont
> configure
>
> John K sez emc2 wont build with the current 2.6 kernel
>
> well that note was from 2004
> is it still true?
Very out of date comment - emc2 has been compiling on 2.6 kernels for some
months now.
> I did an anonymous checkout today & then ( as opposed to the notes on
> Linuxcnc.org which have you in the wrong directory... )
> cd src
> ./configure
> results in...
> checking for /usr/src/kernel-source-2.6.12.6-magma/include/linux/version.h
> usability... no
> presence... no
apt-cdrom add
apt-get install kernel-sources-2.6.12.6-magma gcc tk8.4-dev libgtk2.0-dev
If you had done a full install of everything you can forgo the previous lines
cd /usr/src
tar -xjzf kernel-sources-2.6.12.6-magma
cd kernel-sources-2.6.12.6-magma
cp /boot/config-2.6.12.6-magma .config
make oldconfig
make prepare-all
This sets up the development environment, and from here you can move on to
configuring & compiling emc2.
> well. it's some use of the word presence that i'm not familiar with,
> cuz I went there & read the dang thing
>
> what version BDI do I downgrade to to get emc2 to build? AND have Halcmd
> and Halscope working? What kernel version is neccesary? Any other caveats?
You have everything you need at your finger tips - No need to re-install,
downgrade, or any other hackery. Any further problems, feel free to pester
JMK for detailed answers ;)
Regards, Paul.
--
irc channel for EMC users at irc.freenode.org
/join #emc
Pieces of seven! Pieces of seven! (Hrm, parroty error)
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 6
Date: Sat, 1 Oct 2005 16:31:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: juan gelt
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
the ir series are hexfets - very special fets.
i have the international rectifier designers handbook
here, so i'll quote it:
"The integral body-drain diode is a real circuit
element, and it's current handling capability is
typically as high as that of the transistor itself."
i admit i have never scoped it, so i don't know first
hand just how fast it is. i can say i've never had a
hexfet powerfet fail on me from driving steppers with
it.
i'd totally like to correct my understanding if it's
wrong, though, if you have any good info that
clarifies this.
--- Jon Elson wrote:
> juan gelt wrote:
>
> >no, it will not self destruct.
> >the international rectifier hexfets have a built in
> >reverse diode that will handle FULL LOAD CURRENT.
> >
> The diodes will never be called on to conduct. The
> problem is that
> at 20 V power supply, when the drive steps, the
> transistor that is
> turning off will be exposed to about 40 V plus the
> inductive
> turnoff on the leakage inductance, which is hard to
> predict. It
> will force the transistors into avalanche breakdown.
> This is a
> rough abuse of the transistors. A freewheeling
> diode connected
> to return this current to the power supply would be
> a good addition
> to the circuit.
>
> >However, irfz is NOT the right choice - use IRLZ54.
> >
> Yes, this is a good point.
>
> >these are made to run on logic level input.
> >digikey has them.
> >if you want a nicer circuit that's about as simple,
> >grab the pdf from this link.
> >http://robotstore.com/catalog/display.asp?pid=63
> >
> A better circuit for a number of reasons. The
> opto-isolation is a good
> idea. It still doesn't have the freewheeling
> diodes, though.
>
> Jon
>
>
>
> Addresses:
> FAQ: http://www.ktmarketing.com/faq.html
> FILES:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO/files/
> Post Messages: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
>
> Subscribe:
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> davemucha@... [Moderators]
> URL to this group:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO
>
> OFF Topic POSTS: General Machining
> If you wish to post on unlimited OT subjects goto:
> aol://5863:126/rec.crafts.metalworking or go thru
> Google.com to reach it if you have trouble.
> http://www.metalworking.com/news_servers.html
>
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jobshophomeshop I
> consider this to be a sister site to the CCED group,
> as many of the same members are there, for OT
> subjects, that are not allowed on the CCED list.
>
> NOTICE: ALL POSTINGS TO THIS GROUP BECOME PUBLIC
> DOMAIN BY POSTING THEM. DON'T POST IF YOU CAN NOT
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> List Mom
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>
>
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>
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>
>
>
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http://mail.yahoo.com
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 7
Date: Sat, 01 Oct 2005 23:34:06 -0000
From: "rolandfriestad"
Subject: Re: Waterjet - HomeBrew
Large volume users do recycle the abrasive - Not practical for
smaller users like me - If you cut steel and use it for concrete the
result would soon be rust-colored after being rained on for a short
time - Makes a pretty good yard pot-hole filler but you could run
afoul of the environmental folks - I recently read of a case of a
company being charged with "heavy metal" pollution but they were only
cutting aluminum - Who knows how the folks at Uncle Sam make their
decisions? - Seriously though, a lot of metals have components that
would officially be considered dangerous pollutants if the abrasive
were just discarded after use - One of my sons is a Chemistry
Professor and Uncle Sam insists that Sodium Chloride in his lab be in
special double walled protective containers so that pollution doesn't
occur in case of a spill - I kid you not -
Regarding details on a home-built unit I'm doodling on - Not far
enough along to release anything as I mentioned before - Probably be
a couple of years until ready - So many projects, so little time -
Anybody who wants to contact me about it should do so on my e-mail
address as this is probably drifting Off Topic quite a bit -
Roland Friestad
cardinal.eng@...
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "turbulatordude"
wrote:
> --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "Cardinal Engineering"
> wrote:
> > Just a couple of comments - I have a waterjet in my shop and while
> it is an
> > incredible technology for many purposes it also has some
drawbacks - The
> > main one being the large amount of abrasive that needs to be
> disposed of -
>
> This has always got my cogs turning. how-come-is-it that one
cannot
> use, er re-use the abrasive ?
>
> It would seem that the swarf would clog the nozzles, but that there
> has to be some way to use the stuff. I was thinking it might be
> possible to use it in a sand-blaster..... something.... Mix with
> cement and make concrete for the driveway.....
>
> Dave
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 02 Oct 2005 00:06:10 -0000
From: "turbulatordude"
Subject: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, Jon Elson wrote:
> Blue wrote:
>
> >Hi,
> >
> >I was going to use this driver with 50oz motors of 1 amp using a power
> >supply of about 20 volts. The machine would be quite small for
> >drilling/routing circuit boards.
> >
> >
> Well, you would need to add resistors. A 1 Amp/winding motor would not
> have a 20 Ohm winding resistance, or it would go up in flames.
> So, you would need to add 2 resistors of about 19 Ohms (assuming the
> motor drops about 1 V at 1 A) at 360 W. Each motor/drive combination
> would need 720 W from the power supply, so a 3-axis system would draw
> over 2 KW!
>
> >Speed is not really an issue but I wouldn't want o wait all day for
it to
> >finish a job. I thiught it was a cheap alternative to proper drivers.
> >
> >
> Well, you will get your 50 Oz-In when standing still, but at 60 RPM, you
> might have only 5 usable Oz-In, because of R/L and resonance problems.
> The performance of such a drive is going to be so abysmally below a
> good bipolar microstepping drive that it is almost impossible for
someone
> who has not seen it with their own eyes to believe.
>
> The IRFZ44 transistors are not properly driven to saturation by a 5 V
> power supply, which is what the logic supply voltage is. The logic
signals
> are not opto-coupled, which may cause noise problems in a multi-axis
> system. There is no provision to control the inductive energy when one
> of the transistors is turned off, which may cause the transistors to be
> damaged by this energy.
>
> Yes, it is a cheap alternative. They left out the last 35 years of
> development
> in stepper drives.
>
> Jon
All this may be true, but for a cheap PCB driller type machine where
high performance is not needed, these would move the axes around.
Dave
________________________________________________________________________
________________________________________________________________________
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 2 Oct 2005 08:27:01 +0800
From: "Paul Kelly"
Subject: RE: Re: Stepper Motor Driver
I'll chip in my 2c worth.
Many people start off thinking they will build the cheapest cnc machine ever
and that all this fussing about ballscrews, bipolar chopper drives,
acceleration curves etc.. is either a pretentious waste of money or a means
of generating speeds that they don't require. I know I started this way. 7
Versions of stepper drives and at least 2 rebuilds of the drive screws
later, I feel I am now closer to the "truth". Making a machine you are happy
with on a hobby budget just isn't possible. Yes you can experience the
thrill of generating motion, but important issues like backlash,
repeatability and wear will end your project.
On a small project budget of say US$500 you could make a TINY machine that
would last, maybe, and I'm talking 50um and 1m/min here.
The technology to make a useful cnc machine is reasonably advanced (in terms
of power and precision) and, by hobby standards, is expensive.
I bet there are a lot more wood framed nc routers sitting in the junk box at
the moment than there are cutting swarf.
The thing is, don't be discouraged by this! Set yourself some and ask for
help (which you have done, congratulations on that. If only I...), when you
have a good idea what you want to do, cost it, again with help. Then start
work.
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