Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Database issues was Re: 2000 members, 15 cnc related programs?????

Ballendo - ease up man!

Flaming is expressly forbidden on this group and you are PERIOUSLY close to
doing so with your statement of resent towards Fred.

Fred bends over backwards to help us. You occasionally give helpful
information in rant-form while otherwise stirring up the general populace.
I, for one, know whom I find more important to the general well-being of the
list. Fred wins, sorry. He's hacking his price on a well reputed product,
while you pop off with your 'I wouldn't take these people as customers
because...' type theories instead.

I'm not the list Mom, and I don't like heavy-handed Mommage anyway. HOWEVER!
This is getting ridiculous - why don't you take your beefs with Fred offline
(or maybe out in the back alley - seems more your style from the attitude
you present here) and let the rest of us continue to enjoy the BENEFITS not
DETRACTIONS of the list.

If YOUR database isn't how YOU want it, GO FIX IT! You *TELLING* me what to
do, in the form of your 15/2000 admonishment is COMPLETELY unwelcome, and
right up there with the rest of the Yahoo spam.

Let it go, man...

Matt King
Columbus, GA

P.S. PLEASE tell us your real name and location - I don't want to make the
mistake of wandering into your shop one day...



-----Original Message-----
From: ballendo <ballendo@...>
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com <CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com>
Date: Wednesday, January 30, 2002 3:26 AM
Subject: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Database issues was Re: 2000 members, 15 cnc
related programs?????

>Fred,List, (long post, important throughout, IMO)
>
>I feel you have missed the point of this database. It is designed to
>be a STARTING POINT, NOT A SALES TOOL.
>
>Adding all the categories and evaluations would make it unwieldy for
>ITS INTENDED USE.
>
>As it is, one can very quickly determine whether a pkg is CAD,
>toolpath, motor control, or a combination. And whether it costs
>little, or much. And where TO GO FOR MORE INFORMATION...
>
>And speeds/feeds calculator-(toolpath, possibly CAD), geargen-
>(toolpath), and editors-(toolpath); all are EASY to fit into the
>categories given. If it doesn't fit the GIVEN categories, it doesn't
>BELONG on THIS database.
>
>I resent your attempt to force your views on us. Share them, discuss
>them, but to say "remove my program" is like saying "I'm taking my
>ball home with me now..." And one more time, I'm sure you don't have
>the right to do this in the USA.
>
>Again, you are free to add your own complicated, large, unwieldy, all-
>inclusive, entry only by APPROVED members (who happen to represent
>the companies, in your statement- seems like you want the fox to
>guard the henhouse) database. But please do not IMPOSE your views
>upon what THIS database was/is intended to be.
>
>Clearly we disagree. There's room for everybody.
>
>Ballendo
>
>P.S. This list is far from necessary to my book(s). Decades of
>experience and thousands of hours of research put me in a pretty good
>position, already. The reason I posted the 2k,only 15 was so I didn't
>have to fill the database myself. I could add at least a few hundred
>entries ON MY OWN! (but with 2000 members, it shouldn't all fall on
>my shoulders)
>
>(more snips,inserts below)
>
>> My categories were carefully thought out, keeping that particular
>> program and its capabilities in mind. I did not say that a program
>> could not be in more than one catagory, just that the functional
>> categories should be clearly demarked.
>
>Exactly what my database does; ALSO carefully thought out. But maybe
>not with the same goals in mind as you...
>
>> I think in fact that it would better clarify the tools available in
>> the software end of things.
>
>Clarification is great. But I AGREE that the DETAILS OF CLARIFICATION
>SHOULD COME FROM THE COMPANY REPS! Not from a "listing" database.
>
>I have a book, of a few hundred pages, from 15 years ago, which lists
>ONLY CAD programs... (Our group website would not support the
>database you describe)
>
>> Right now Discriminator is listed as tool path software, Deskam and
>>Lcam as CAD, and up until I requested it be removed, VectorCam was
>>on the list twice. Confused yet?
>
>What is the problem here? editors ARE used to tweak toolpaths; you
>certainly wouldn't call discriminator a CAD program. And it doesn't
>control motors.
>
>Deskam and Lcam ARE CAD programs. Computer Aided Drafting, both have
>drawing tools... Again, huh?
>
>As to Vector being on the list twice, "for this you are complaining?"
>I decided I would check in about once a week (more if necessary)
>to "clean up" the entries. And I have done so; removong subjective
>evals, tightening text descriptions to keep the dbase as short as
>possible; remember, I didn't even want the text at all. It was
>requested by others! Anyway, one or the other Vector reference would
>have been deleted, in this cleanup, as were the duplicate proDesktop
>entries I recently found.
>
>By the way, VectorCAD is 1. VectorCAM is 1,2. So there SHOULD BE TWO
>ENTRIES. To prevent confusion about this distinction, which was
>expressed onlist recently.
>
>> I would probably add a 5th category, but for other software that
>>did not fit into any of the Cad-Cam categories, like editors(2),
>>calculators(not here), gear programs(2, maybe 1), translators(2), R2V
>(2, unless containing drawing tools, then 1 also), utilities
>(depends), spreadsheets(dpends),etc, etc, etc.
>
>Some of these fit; some do not. I've added my interpretations to your
>list above. There can be other databases!
>
>>Also by making 4 separate breaks between the controllers cads &
>>cams, the appropriate capabilities between the different packages
>>could be related. Such as which controllers have cutter comp, which
>>ones have continuous contouring, Dos, Linux, Mac, support G-code,
>>allow programmed changes in Feed rates, etc, same for CAD, CAM.
>>This is the only sensible way to present the information and any
>>other way becomes a meaningless hodgepodge of data without any
>knowledge or wisdom imparted.
>
>I have seen MANY attempts to do this. Including many online. Most,if
>not all, fail miserably! This is what I wanted to AVOID with the
>design of this database...
>KISS, and provide a way to get more info FROM THE SOURCE...
>
>>That's because you have already done your homework and know the
>>differences. They DON'T make a difference to you. Your opinioins
>>are already formed and you don't need the table to help you get
>>started. For a new person to this hobby, it may make all the
>>difference in the world, between success and failure.
>
>Vector is 1,2. In the future (based on recent posts) it may be 1,2,3.
>If I am looking for solutions to my cnc software problem, these
>distinctions are plenty sufficient, as long as I do my own research!
>Which this database is designed to promote, by NOT being an "all the
>info you'll EVER need is here" thing. (Those types fail, and go out
>of date daily, anyway.)
>
><snip>
>>>either definitive or a complete selling document - more a handy
>>>reference point & source of URLs so that people could get to the
>>>full selling info.
>
>>That was/is already contained in the group links. Why bother if the
>>database doesn't provide anything more than a place to store garbage.
>
>Information is processed by different people differently. What you
>call garbage, others call a treasure. (I had lots of offlist msgs
>from newbies, many who HAD already seen the links and faqs stuff. Are
>you saying they're WRONG? There's room for differing views.
>
>> I think he is trying to collect data for his book.
>
>Laughable. And covered above. I have given FAR more than I have taken
>from this group.
>
>>My company is glad to participate in meaningful and useful sources
>>of info. This database is not and apparently will not be in that
>>category.
>
>Meaningful and useful in WHOSE EYES??? I don't think you
>can "censor" this database in this way. But you could "pull" your
>pricing for members, which would of course show your true intentions,
>here. Sales are "tolerated", but that is NOT "supposed" to be the
>focus of this group. Spreading information IS the reason for the
>group. Which this database clearly does.
>
>>It was previously suggested (not by me) that a finer pricing
>>distinction be applied. This was summarily ignored and arbitrarily
>>dismissed and that only contributed more to the worthlessness of the
>>data.
>
>Fred, I didn't want keeping this accurate and up to date to be a full
>time job. I ALSO didn't want those who were ACTIVE on list placed in
>an unfair position. (by their "more likely" tendency to keep the
>pricing of THEIR products current, while others have not.
>
>Finally, this database is intended to be a STARTING POINT. Like a
>dining guide, I don't see the menus or prices, just a general
>indication of TYPE of food served, whether it is cheap or expensive,
>and WHERE it is. I STILL have to GO THERE to find out what I think
>about it.
>
>Are dining guides useless, or garbage?
>
>B.
>
>
>Addresses:
>FAQ: http://www.ktmarketing.com/faq.html
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>
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>bill,
>List Manager
>
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