RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?

A "circuit" can be more than simple wiring and conductors.

Think of lightning-what "circuit" is that current flow completing?

I honestly think a floating voltage can be just as dangerous as an "unisolated" one. You CAN get a shock by touching one lead of an isolated transformer winding. The transformer winding WILL have some relation to ground(earth) not through a conductor, but whether it is capacitively coupled or something else, I don't know.

The whole reason that our power mains are grounded is that in the early days of power distribution, when they didn't ground one side or a center tap, you might encounter a 100VDC line that was floating at thousands of volts above ground-which proved to be lethal.


Andy Wander

-----Original Message-----
From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jeffrey T. Birt
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 1:59 AM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?



Ø > For instance, to use your analogy, why is the "red" water more
dangerous than the un-colored water?



I was trying to explain the theory of how isolation works. The color of the
water only showed that one side was isolated from the other.



Ø If you have an isolation transformer that produces an isolated 110V
output and you grab one lead in each hand you will get shocked. This is the
same as grabbing the leads on a varic.

Ø > And I don't think it is correct to say beg to differ that you can't get
a shock by touching a single wire from an isolation transformer. The chances
are good that you will not get a shock, by completing a circuit to ground,
but by no means absolute. The output of the "ungrounded" isolation
transformer WILL have some potential with respect to ground-and you don't
know what it is.



One receives a shock by completing a circuit. As I have mentioned a few
times now the isolation prevents your body from completing the circuit from
the mains to earth ground. But of course, as I also stated if you grab both
secondary leads you will also complete a circuit and receive a shock. The
'isolation' means you are isolated from the mains.



Ø Considering about half of the cnc controllers ground the -ve side of the
isolated output, they are producing the same effect as an auto tranformer.



No it is not really the same effect, as it is not the same circuit; you
still have no direct electrical path from mains primary to the secondary
side. Tying the -ve side to earth means you may get a shock by touching +ve
and ground, if the potential is high enough.



Jeff



From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Peter Homann
Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2012 12:16 AM
To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?





Hi Andy,

You are correct,

If you have an isolation transformer that produces an isolated 110V output
and
you grab one lead in each hand you will get shocked. This is the same as
grabbing the leads on a varic.

Considering about half of the cnc controllers ground the -ve side of the
isolated output, they are producing the same effect as an auto tranformer.

Cheers,

Peter.

On 15/01/2012 3:39 PM, Andy Wander wrote:
> Hi Jeff:
>
> I appreciate the effort.
>
> But there are a couple of things that don't convince me still.
>
> For instance, to use your analogy, why is the "red" water more dangerous
than the un-colored water?
>
> And I don't think it is correct to say beg to differ that you can't get a
shock by touching a single wire from an isolation transformer. The chances
are good that you will not get a shock, by completing a circuit to ground,
but by no means absolute. The output of the "ungrounded" isolation
transformer WILL have some potential with respect to ground-and you don't
know what it is.
>
>
>
> Andy Wander
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Jeffrey T. Birt
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 11:16 PM
> To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?
>
> Sorry Andy, I'm really trying to be helpful but trying to explain this
type
> of thing over email is not very effective.
>
>
>
>> So you don't count magnetic flux coupling as an electrical path?
>
>> It can cause current to flow, so even if you call it by a different name,
> again, what is the difference?
>
>
>
> Electrical current is the flow of electrons through a conductor (something
> with electrons that are relatively easy to break loose.) Magnetic flux is,
> well magnetic flux they are different things. Just because magnetic flux
can
> induce a voltage (and current) flow does not mean they are the same thing.
A
> fire will produce heat but fire and heat are not the same thing.
>
>
>
> Let's use an analogy to try and make the point more clear.
>
>
>
> Let's say you have an engine driven pump that is pumping water from a pond
> through a hose, the hose feeds into an impeller, another hose leads from
the
> housing back to the pond. The water from the pump in turn rotates the
> impeller. This is a closed system, let's call this the 'P' side.
>
>
>
> You have a second impeller that has hoses that lead two and from a tank,
> basically it sucks water from the tank, circulates it through the impeller
> housing and discharges it back into the tank. Let's call this the 'S'
side.
>
>
>
> Now let's say you mechanically couple the two impellers with a shaft. This
> means that the engine driven pump which is circulating water on the 'P'
side
> is, by means of the mechanically coupled impellers, is also circulating
> water through the 'S' side.
>
>
>
> Now if you dump a couple of hundred gallons of red dye into the pond, the
> pond will turn red and you will have red colored water flowing through the
> 'P' side. Remember that the two side are only connected by the drive shaft
> so the 'S' side still has clear water. The two side are isolated so you
> can't get red hands by playing with things on the 'S' side.
>
>
>
> This is roughly similar to an isolation transformer. Water flowing on one
> side causes water to flow on the other side even though they are only
> coupled by a shaft, there is now water flowing directly from the pond to
the
> tank.
>
>
>
> A Variac is like a pressure regulator. It reduces the water pressure from
> the source pump but provides no isolation. The water from the pump is the
> same water flowing through the tank.
>
>
>
> Our electrical distribution system is (earth)ground referenced. You have a
> ground rod outside your house and a wire leads from the (earth)ground rod
to
> your electrical panel where it is connected to the (earth)ground bus (and
> the (earth)ground bus is also bonded to the neutral bus.) As you know when
> you wire your house there are three wires in the cable, 'hot' 'neutral',
and
> '(earth)ground'. Current flows through hot and neutral while (earth)ground
> is there for safety.
>
>
>
> If you stick your finger in an electrical outlet and touch the hot
terminal
> you will be shocked because your body will provide a current path to
> (earth)ground. Now let's say you plug an isolation transformer into that
> outlet and touch one of the wires on the secondary side. You won't be
> shocked because the secondary side is isolated from the primary side;
there
> is no electrical connection between the primary and secondary sides. If
you
> touch both wires on the secondary side you will be shocked because your
body
> is completing a current between them.
>
>
>
> I hope that helps
>
>
>
> Jeff
>
>
>
> From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Andy Wander
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 8:57 PM
> To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?
>
>
>
>
>
> But it is NOT clear-at least not to me, Jeff. So you don't count magnetic
> flux coupling as an electrical path? It can cause current to flow, so even
> if you call it by a different name, again, what is the difference?
>
> I am not saying it is ok to use a Variac-but I am always amazed by the
> vociferous arguments of those who can't really back them up.
>
> If you can explain why it is dangerous, please do. But just saying "I
can't
> make it any clearer" doesn't help me understand.
>
> Andy Wander
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Jeffrey T. Birt
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 6:37 PM
> To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?
>
> There IS NO ELECTRICAL PATH from the isolated secondary to earth ground!
> That is the whole point. I do not know how much more clearly it can be
said.
>
> Jeff Birt
>
> Soigeneris.com
>
> From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Andy Wander
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 5:04 PM
> To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?
>
> Again, you are only saying the "conventional" stuff, Jeff. I don't mean to
> pick on you, but can you tell me why a direct path from mains to earth is
> more dangerous than a magnetically coupled path from mains to earth?
>
> I can't see any reason why 100V, say, should be more dangerous whether it
is
> through a transformer or directly coupled to the mains.
>
> Andy Wander
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Jeffrey T. Birt
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 4:13 PM
> To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?
>
> Let's stop and consider what a transformer is and why it works. A
> transformer is two coils of wire wound around a common ferrous core. There
> is no direct electrical connection between these two coils, that is
current
> (electrons) do not flow from the primary coil to the secondary coil. When
> current flows through a wire a magnetic field is produced around the wire.
> In the case of AC current, since the current is always changing the
magnetic
> field is always changing. It just so happens that a voltage in induced on
a
> wire when it is in the presence of a changing magnetic field. So here we
> have out transformer, two coils of wire that are only coupled by a
magnetic
> field, thus they are isolated from one another.
>
> The secondary side of a transformer has no direct connection to the
primary
> so if you measure from one side of the primary to the secondary you won't
> see a voltage there. The voltage is 'across' the secondary. A 'variac' is
an
> autotransformer, take a look here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autotransformer . As you can see there is a
> direct electrical connection between the primary and secondary sides (no
> isolation). In essence your machine is directly hooked to the mains. If
some
> electrical wire frays and touches your machine frame (or you!) now you
have
> a direct path from mains to earth, a very dangerous situation.
>
> Hope that helps
>
> Jeff Birt
>
> Soigeneris.com
>
> From: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> [mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Andy Wander
> Sent: Saturday, January 14, 2012 1:18 PM
> To: CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com
<mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> <mailto:CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO%40yahoogroups.com>
> Subject: RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Remember Mr. Bill's servo lite?
>
> That;s what I don't get, and nobody seems capable of explaining it-they
just
> say "it is".
>
> Take 2 scenarios:
>
> 1) A couple of wires plugged in to an AC outlet at 120VAC. One wire will
be
> "grounded", while the other wil be at 120VAC above ground.
>
> 2) A 120VAC isolation transformer, with the primary plugged in to the same
> AC outlet, and the wires attached to the secondary.
>
> Why is #1 necessarily more dangerous? I could think up scenarios,
especially
> if one side of the secondary is NOT grounded, where #2 would give more
> chance of a dangerous electrical shock. But let's assume one side of the
> secondary is #2 IS grounded. Why is it safer to have the isolation
> transformer?
>
> Andy Wander
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
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