Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: BobCAD/CAM v.s. Dolphin CAD/CAM

imserv1 wrote:

> Why? What's the difference? How can you control a theoretical tool
> path that is created on the fly as John is so fond of accusing Vector
> of creating G-code? Because Surfcam does it that way? No way, I
> much prefer to have all the toolpaths as an editable, selectable,
> configurable set of entities.

I fully realize that Vector Does NOT create code on the Fly as did Bobcad.
There is no real comparison here. It would appear that Johns last contact
around V7 or so left him with that old "BobCad" feeling but he should rest
assured, It does NOT work like the typical on the fly method.

I want to clarify my desires where the drawn "part" would be better if the
arrows were not always on it. Draw something real detailed and sometimes you
cant even see the part because of the millions of little arrows. Real
bothersome if you happen to import a file with a gazzillion short line
segments. I too want the option to edit "Every Line and entity". But there
should be a very clear seperation between editing part of the Cad Drawing,
and Editing a Entity of a toolpath. Your comment above " I much prefer to
have all the toolpaths as an editable, selectable, configurable set of
entities." Is my thought exactly ! However when selected they ALL look the
same. All red, all full of arrows. There is where the difference is. I do not
care what Cad/Cam program I have used in the past, the difference has always
been very well defined.
In most cases the toolpaths could show direction because they ARE toolpaths.
The Part certainly could be edited as well at anytime - It just can never be
a toolpath. thats NOT to say it can not be cut. Stupid little Signlab is an
excellent example of that.

> That's the "way we've always done it", is exactly what you are suggesting
> that we turn Vector into. (won't happen, we're too mean)

This sounds like Vector may NEVER have the simple option to turn off the
sometimes too big arrows ? What a Meanie ! I suppose it would be way too much
to ask to have the size reduced as well. I hate to even say this.... Sheez,
have you looked at the size of the direction arrows in OTHER programs ?? They
are not so overbearing. If Vector takes the attitude and expresses it so,
that they really do not care what the user brings up as a possible
improvement, it will be no better program than the others that have not
listened. Too bad.

> Clean circle is a Wire EDM function.

I have to look at it again.... I thought I came across multiple depth
settings in the follow up windows. If they are there how does wire EDM use
that ? I could very well be dreaming on that issue. I do know it is very
reminiscent of that "other" programs clean circle command.

>
> All the pocketing toolpaths and their components are automaticlly
> placed on predesignated layers. It is quite clear inside Vector what
> is drawing and what is toolpath. Lathe roughing and finishing are
> also marked with unique layer names. So are hatches too for that
> matter. In some cases I have pushed to have original entity
> attributes retained where it made sense, rather than putting modified
> geometry on a designated layer, we retain the original color, layer,
> and other attributes.

Understood fully. Ok, only kinda fully, remember I am just shooting my mouth
off when I have not yet been able to spend the amount of time I need to. What
a predicament I can get myself into !

> >Consider CorelDraw.
>
> Sorry not gonna happen. ;-) Talk about an old tired interface.

Tired ?? I sure would like key commands that I could assign in Vector. I
would also like all of the absolutely mind boggling Toolox and command button
configurable options that Corel has. I can make Corel look and work the way I
want to not some BMW driving college kid making more money in a year than I
make in 6. I will take a very strong stand on my opinion of Vectors Drawing
window and techniques...Now THAT IS dated and Tired.

If Corel is "tired' and Vector is not, This will be a problem for me. That
would mean there will be no improvements to toolbars. Somehow I feel that
this is not the case, and with the 32 bit rewrite, doors have opened for some
very good improvements in the near future. I can't wait.

> Vector code is always on the money. If you try to pocket an open
> contour you get what you deserve, nothing. ;-)

Agreed. I can not find fault with this aspect so far. Far the best I have
seen for the dollar amount.

> > Get a copy of Signlab to Study.
>
> What does it cost(upfront and per year for maintenance) & how is
> their support? Should I copy it and then also price Vector the
> same? I prefer to identify a common problem and develop economical
> solutions. Like for instance V-tip lettering toolpaths. Minimum cost
> about $8000 before Vfontz was released at $300.

The operative word was "Study". There must be some things that allow a user
to be more productive buried in there somewhere. My 10 year old can actually
drill, pocket, contour..... Edit toolpaths And drawing entities and send the
code to the machine. I assure you, he will not catch on to Vector as fast.
That tells me something. SignLab by far (though I prefer the private label
VisionPro copy because it costs $$$$$ less) is NOT a replacement for any
combo program. Why, Well lets just say that instead of listening to the
customer and improving what they had, They somehow decided it much better to
add buttons and bells to make their program "Web happy". They should have
spent the effort on the existing drawing and toolpath concepts of the
program.

> Ashlars methods of drawing, Who could > argue with that ?
>
> Ashlar for one. They have some very nasty(nice for them) patents that
> are actually holding back the entire Cad industry.

Sure, and I am well aware. But somehow there are ways around it or ways to
afford it. Intergraph came out with their concept a few years back that was
almost a knockoff of ashlars "autosnap" and "auto-ortho". This same program
is somehow now associated with those free solidedge? programs floating
around.
AutoCad dropped the octopus key commands some years back in Lt. They were
able to apply "default" snap points making that program much more user
friendly. And, if you did not like them and Wanted to draw like an octopus
with bothhands busily typing commands instead of one hand holding a Beer,
Youu could turn the option OFF! Options..... its all about Options !
Right now, the most affordable 2d option that comes close is AutoSketch. They
too have "auto snap" defaults and a lot of other things Ashlar used long ago.
Did the patents run out ? Did they Pay for the use ? I do not know. But, with
Sketch running UNDER $100 it is truly incredible. No need to remind me its
only 2d. That is irrelevant. The "Concept" IS relevant. btw, I think that
company really could care less about the consumer as well and their loss of
market continues to show it. So, that must mean any "good" results from
development are made by accident. Vector and Dolphin "MAY" be able to have
"good" results because of something "planned" provided they always keep an
ear to the market. FlashCut is another example of "listening" to customers.
Their first few years of listening will undoubtedly show in their next
release. Their first version went thru more changes than one can imagine

>because< of customer requests.

And rest assured, those customers requests that the base code just would not
support will be addressed as well.

> Buy signlab. that's the only advice I can give.

Got it. Can't really do what I do without it.

> Between Vellum and
> Signlab, however, you can probably buy a couple used CNC machines.

I got the 2d Ashlar engine under the Drawing Board label for $129 years back.
I drew with it alongside a co-worker with both A-Cad and A-Cad lt, even
Surfcam. He could not draw the same part near as fast. He was a 10 year daily
A-Cad user. Obviously, even that 16 bit app was not "Tired".Cheap today ?
probably not. I guess you sometimes get what you pay for.
Signlab ? Well, call Western Engravers for V-Pro at $2000.

> Yes it will, but you missed the important thing, we want to keep
> Vector simple. In Holland they call it the "machinists handy tool",
> or something like that. Companies like Phillips have lots of seats
> because their craftsmen can rely on the program to make parts the way
> they want, not the way some programmer in a closet decided to program
> a toolpath.

Its simple. I realize that. I "simply" draw my part somewhere where I can
draw it quickly and accurately, then Import it to a really wonderful and
affordable Program called Vector, Make toolpaths and then Cut stuff ! :-) I
have also drawn multiple 2d views in AutoSketch and brought them into Vector.
What a cheater !

>
>
> Right now we are in a major development of new capabilities. These
> capabilities are about to be plugged in, after over 2 years of
> intense development. Even with that effort, however, we still came
> out with 2 (TWO!) major releases in 2001.

This is where I am looking ahead. Vector does a full 32 bit re-write of the
same program. There is no way it will stay near the level it is at. It will
move forward to bigger and better things, they will recognize the need to
address those direction arrows, :-) (even though their mean) and continue to
have a really great product. I just hope the upgrade costs are affordable....
my wife has been examining the paperwork, wondering why I never really make
any money............

> 2002 is the tenth year anniversary for Vector and coincidentally it
> is also the ten year anniversary for IMService. If you think we are
> going to curl up and rest on our laurels, change your
> prescriptions! ;-)

Congrat's Fred and Company ! Everyone knows how you actively help out in the
various NG's.

Thanks from me,

Chris L