Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Posted by
Mariss Freimanis
on 2006-07-24 02:32:08 UTC
This topic will quickly be ruled "OT" so I'll get in quick to beat
the gun.:-)
What you are looking to do almost fits in the "perpetual motion
machine" round-bin. Almost.
It violates some basic laws of logic and a whole bunch of economic
ones.
Logic law: A system can never be completely self-aware. The volume of
information data to completely describe any system has to exceed the
system itself. It's a never-ending and growing circle if you add that
self-description data to the system. You do, the system gets bigger
and the data to describe the added self-description grows as well.
Around and around.
Economic laws: So let's say you overcome the above. Some parts of the
self-replicator are made of tool-steel and aluminum, other parts are
made of silicon, copper foil and fiberglass-epoxy.
Objection 1: You have to purchase the diverse raw materials your self-
replicator needs to self-replicate. Some of these materials are of a
special and rare nature. Will you pay significantly less for them
than you you would for the fabricated replacement part?
Objection 2: You pay for a specific function from a mechanism. A
router does a truly crappy job milling tool-steel and a mill suitable
for milling tool-steel makes for a really poor 4' by 8' wood router.
Let's not even touch the pick-and-place function, board etching and
drilling and reflow oven functions to self-replicate electronics. How
much would this "Swiss-knife" machine cost versus one meant for the
task at hand; route wood, mill steel or SMT-mount PCBs?
Objection 3: You don't have a self-replicator turning out copies of
itself when things are going well. You need a copy when the original
breaks. When it's broken, how is it going to turn out a copy of
itself?
About ideas and names: Naming things is the easiest task. For that
reason it should reserved for after you have done the hard work of
actually building your idea and having a working version. Name it
after the work is done, not before. That's good form.
Mariss
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Schmitz"
<denschmitz@...> wrote:
the gun.:-)
What you are looking to do almost fits in the "perpetual motion
machine" round-bin. Almost.
It violates some basic laws of logic and a whole bunch of economic
ones.
Logic law: A system can never be completely self-aware. The volume of
information data to completely describe any system has to exceed the
system itself. It's a never-ending and growing circle if you add that
self-description data to the system. You do, the system gets bigger
and the data to describe the added self-description grows as well.
Around and around.
Economic laws: So let's say you overcome the above. Some parts of the
self-replicator are made of tool-steel and aluminum, other parts are
made of silicon, copper foil and fiberglass-epoxy.
Objection 1: You have to purchase the diverse raw materials your self-
replicator needs to self-replicate. Some of these materials are of a
special and rare nature. Will you pay significantly less for them
than you you would for the fabricated replacement part?
Objection 2: You pay for a specific function from a mechanism. A
router does a truly crappy job milling tool-steel and a mill suitable
for milling tool-steel makes for a really poor 4' by 8' wood router.
Let's not even touch the pick-and-place function, board etching and
drilling and reflow oven functions to self-replicate electronics. How
much would this "Swiss-knife" machine cost versus one meant for the
task at hand; route wood, mill steel or SMT-mount PCBs?
Objection 3: You don't have a self-replicator turning out copies of
itself when things are going well. You need a copy when the original
breaks. When it's broken, how is it going to turn out a copy of
itself?
About ideas and names: Naming things is the easiest task. For that
reason it should reserved for after you have done the hard work of
actually building your idea and having a working version. Name it
after the work is done, not before. That's good form.
Mariss
--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "Dennis Schmitz"
<denschmitz@...> wrote:
>university
> A couple of years back, I saw a project being done out of a
> that was a first attempt at a self-replicating robot. The idea wasself
> that it would use various plastics and metals to create circuits and
> other parts. The idea was far to ambitious to succeed today, but it
> got me thinking.
>
> A first step toward such a thing, and indeed toward a completely
> replicating factory might be a machine tool that would ship withCAD
> complete plans to make all of the parts of itself. Sure, this ruins
> the business models of a company that might want to sell them, but
> that's not the point, rather the point is, is it feasible?
>
> A complete machine would need lots of electronics and proprietary
> software to build, but that can all be bought off-the-shelf, makingit
> conceivable that once you have a machine, you can make more of themPWBs
> with it.
>
> Sticking with mechanical stuff (because manufacturing multilayer
> is still difficult), what would such a machine look like? How manyof
> the parts could be made with milling and lathe operations? Is freebuild
> motion control software mature enough? What CAD formats should be
> used? How can we reduce the number of different materials required?
> Could enough people get interested in it to create a
> electro-mechanical equivalent of open-source software?
>
> I'm just interested in your thoughts about what it would take to
> a basic machine assuming you can buy some stuff like motors andscrews
> and single-board computers.build
>
> What about licensing? Would people put up with software that
> occasionally insisted on building a spare part?
>
> Imagine 20 or 100 years out, could this base design evolve into
> something truly automatic, say garage sized, that had the capability
> to create everything necessary to make itself, including
> semiconductors. Assuming it could create all kinds of other stuff,
> from watches to cars, how would this change the world? Do we really
> want to give every tinkerer or psychotic teenager the ability to
> a fighter jet or nuke from scratch?like "Factory v0.001")
>
> What should it be called? (I'm partial to simple names
>
> Sorry if my random Sunday daydreams bore you -- feel free to ignore.
>
Discussion Thread
Dennis Schmitz
2006-07-23 12:06:51 UTC
Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
BRIAN FOLEY
2006-07-23 14:40:12 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Mariss Freimanis
2006-07-24 02:32:08 UTC
Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
engravingdave
2006-07-24 02:33:58 UTC
Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Pete Brown (YahooGroups)
2006-07-24 04:56:24 UTC
RE: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Doug M
2006-07-24 07:28:30 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
wanliker@a...
2006-07-24 09:55:42 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Dennis Schmitz
2006-07-24 11:42:02 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
R Rogers
2006-07-24 12:28:46 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Doug M
2006-07-24 12:43:37 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Graham Stabler
2006-07-24 13:41:34 UTC
Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Dennis Schmitz
2006-07-24 23:02:54 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Graham Stabler
2006-07-25 01:27:36 UTC
Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
ballendo
2006-07-25 04:03:20 UTC
replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
ballendo
2006-07-25 04:17:11 UTC
Swiss NC anc CNC was Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
ballendo
2006-07-25 04:26:43 UTC
Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
Graham Stabler
2006-07-25 05:13:33 UTC
replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
Graham Stabler
2006-07-25 05:16:02 UTC
Swiss NC anc CNC was Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
pml58@s...
2006-07-25 06:14:05 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
lcdpublishing
2006-07-25 06:26:28 UTC
Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
R Rogers
2006-07-25 10:26:25 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
ballendo
2006-07-25 13:09:09 UTC
replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
ballendo
2006-07-25 13:33:48 UTC
replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
Dennis Schmitz
2006-07-25 13:53:22 UTC
Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
lcdpublishing
2006-07-25 14:27:35 UTC
Re: Soliciting Feedback: OS Design
R Rogers
2006-07-25 14:42:41 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
R Rogers
2006-07-25 14:46:35 UTC
Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
lcdpublishing
2006-07-25 14:54:34 UTC
replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS
ballendo
2006-07-25 17:43:02 UTC
replication, or big machines from small ones was Re: Soliciting Feedback:OS