Re: [CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO] Re:305oz Steppers! More torque, Scotty!!!! (Shes' breaking up, I cannah hold'er)

Hi John,

You are correct. They can be run with geckos. I think the point of the
discussion is that the driver bundled with the steppers may not be the
best combination.

Cheers,

Peter.

John Hansford wrote:

> Thanks Peter!
>
> So, I could run them at the 80V my Gecko G202's are good for...
>
> And not worry too much about the slight variations that do
> arise...i.e 80V +/- 10% with line fluctuations...as the Geckos
> are consevatively rated.
>
> Generic numbers as I'm no E.E....By a long shot ;)
>
> Thanks!
> John
>
> --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Homann" <groups@...> wrote:
>>
>> John,
>>
>> Nothing wrong with doing it. Just don't try to do it with the HobbyCNC
>> driver board. It's only rated to 44Vdc. (That's just over 7x the rating.
>> Not anywhere near 20x)
>>
>> I don't know of any Unipolar drive rated to 120Vdc. :-)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Peter.
>>
>> John Hansford wrote:
>> > I see the site has been adjusted to say 6.8mH now. But
>> > anyway...What problems could be expected running a 6V
>> > motor at 20x it's voltage rating?
>> >
>> > Thanks!
>> > John
>> >
>> > --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "John Hansford" <kz1927@>
>> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> The Hobbycnc site says the inductance is 2.3mH...does
>> >> that make them sound any better?
>> >>
>> >> $45.00 *seems* like a good price...
>> >>
>> >> Thanks!
>> >> John
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo" <ballendo@> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> > >In CCED, "Dave Rigotti" <drigotti@> wrote:
>> >> > >HobbyCNC is pleased to announce that our CNC "Packages" are now
>> >> > >available with 305oz steppers! We also have them "ala carte"
>> >> >
>> >> > Hello,
>> >> >
>> >> > Another increase in stepper motor torque! Sounds great!
>> >> >
>> >> > (But there's a fly in the ointment, and nobody seems to be telling
>> >> > you about it. IMO it's time somebody did...)
>> >> >
>> >> > Let's review a couple things about stepper motors, and let's
> look at
>> >> > some published facts about motors likely to be VERY similar to the
>> >> > ones just announced, and the earlier/formerly "greatly increased
>> >> > performance" motors. (Quotes just above are for MY emphasis, NOT a
>> >> > direct quote from someone else.)
>> >> >
>> >> > I don't know for sure where Dave R gets his motors; but I do know
>> >> > that most of us selling motors with these specs are using the same
>> >> > motors... Made by the MS motor company in China, and many in
> the USA
>> >> > will source them from John at KelingINC.net
>> >> >
>> >> > So, let's review:
>> >> >
>> >> > Most of the time the Stepper torque published and mentioned is
>> >> > HOLDING torque. It's the biggest number, so it sounds the best for
>> >> > marketing. It's also the way steppers have been identified for
>> >> > decades. (Probably due to the previous sentence!<G>) BUT...
>> >> >
>> >> > It's important to realise... The motor will ONLY have this much
>> >> > torque when it is STOPPED. As soon as it starts to turn, the torque
>> >> > goes DOWN. FOR ALL stepper MOTORS. Regardless of drive type
> (bipolar
>> >> > vs. unipolar)
>> >> >
>> >> > How FAR down, and how FAST the torque drops, and along what "shape"
>> >> > or "Curve" depends upon some things about the motor, AND some
> things
>> >> > about the drive and power supply.
>> >> >
>> >> > Every motor is a generator when it turns. This is what causes the
>> >> > motor to lose torque as it goes faster. The important criteria for
>> >> > this are the motor power supply voltage, and the motor coil
>> >> > inductance. An additional factor is the drive type, unipolar vs.
>> >> > Bipolar.
>> >> >
>> >> > So let's look at the numbers for the Motors Keling sells as having
>> >> > the specs listed on Daves HCNC website. (Where the new 305 oz.in.
>> >> > motors are listed as 6v,2.0A) Here are links to both 305's and the
>> >> > 200's as formerly sold by hobbyCNC (and still available from
>> >> > http://www.cncresource.com ):
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H286-20-08B.pdf (2.15Nm, 305 oz.in.)
>> >> >
>> >> > http://www.kelinginc.net/KL23H276-30-8B.pdf (1.4 Nm, 200 oz.in.)
>> >> >
>> >> > Note: A Nm is a Newton-meter, which equates to about 141 oz.in.
>> >> >
>> >> > (Again I'll mention that I don't know exactly where Dave gets his
>> >> > motors; so these may not be the IDENTICAL motors he's selling. But
>> >> > I'd bet that if not, they're VERY close!)
>> >> >
>> >> > The first thing to notice is that the coil inductance for the
> 305 is
>> >> > over THREE TIMES as high (6.8mH) as for the 200 (2.2mH)...
>> >> >
>> >> > Note: mH is milliHenry's, a measure of inductance. Which is the
>> >> > motor coil's resistance to changing current direction.
>> >> >
>> >> > What this means (that matters to us in the DIY-CNC arena) is that
>> >> > the 305's are going to be a better generator of electricity
> than the
>> >> > 200's. Which is NOT good when you're looking for torque at high
>> >> > speed. Especially when you're limited in your ability to increase
>> >> > power supply voltage to compensate. More on that in a minute.
>> >> >
>> >> > So the motor turns and as it turns it generates a voltage. This
>> >> > voltage is called back EMF (ElectroMotive Force; which is the old
>> >> > name for voltage. And it's why Ohm's law is E=IR instead of V=IR).
>> >> > Back EMF basically subtracts from the power supply voltage.
>> >> > Which means that the motor will behave as if it is being powered by
>> >> > a supply voltage equal to the original power supply MINUS the back
>> >> > EMF.
>> >> >
>> >> > Keling doesn't show torque speed curves for all its motors and the
>> >> > ones it DOES show have the bipolar torque curve (because bipolar
>> >> > drive are more efficient, so that curve makes the motors LOOK
>> >> > better). Point is, we can't "see" the torque curve. But we CAN see
>> >> > that the back EMF will be higher than the 200's (due to the 6.8mH
>> >> > vs. 2.2mH that we CAN see on the spec sheets.)
>> >> >
>> >> > Translated into CNC-speak, the 305's will lose torque very quickly
>> >> > compared to the 200's as speed goes up. In fact, I wouldn't be
>> >> > surprised to find that the 200's outperform the 305's at "typical"
>> >> > speeds used in most DIY-CNC projects... (just a guess right now;
>> >> > I'll know for sure very soon!<G>)
>> >> >
>> >> > Let's get to the other factors in play here:
>> >> >
>> >> > Power supply voltage. If we can raise the power supply voltage, we
>> >> > can push the 305's to higher performance. And this is true for ANY
>> >> > stepper, up to a point of diminishing returns--and motor heating--
>> >> > that Mariss of Gecko has empirically determined to be about 20-25x
>> >> > motor nameplate voltage.
>> >> >
>> >> > Side Note: It is STILL BEST to always use the LOWEST power supply
>> >> > voltage which will give you the results you NEED. Sizing your PS to
>> >> > the max that the drive can handle "just cuz" is bad
> engineering. And
>> >> > that can lead to other unseen and unconsdered problems that you'll
>> >> > bat your head against later...
>> >> >
>> >> > The 305's have a 6 volt nameplate rating. The 200's are rated for
>> >> > 2.76V. (using ohms law to solve since this spec isn't on the linked
>> >> > sheet. Note that many of the "200's" imported into the USA were
>> >> > marked as having 1 ohm coils; in that case the motor volts will be
>> >> > 3V.)
>> >> >
>> >> > So as long as we use drives which have about double the voltage
>> >> > capability we may actually see the performance increase with the
>> >> > 305's. BUT...
>> >> >
>> >> > HobbyCNC drives are based on the Sanken SLA7062 (old revs) and
>> >> > SLA7068 (pro) driver chips. These chips have a MAX voltage
> rating of
>> >> > 44VDC. (We use these in our CNCResource drives as well; they're
> good
>> >> > chips.) Mariss has pointed out that a unipolar drive semiconductor
>> >> > has to be able to withstand DOUBLE the supply voltage. So these
>> >> > chips are probably using a 100v architecture, with the de-rating to
>> >> > 44V acounting for die variation and reliability improvement.
>> >> >
>> >> > HobbyCNC also recommends a 24VAC transformer secondary for the
> power
>> >> > supply. This will provide approximately 34VDC when rectified and
>> >> > filtered as suggested at the HCNC site. If you're going to buy
> these
>> >> > 305's, it would be a GOOD idea to increase your power supply
> voltage
>> >> > as much as you dare towards that 44VDC limit. If you do that the
>> >> > back EMF will be subtracted from this larger "number", and the
>> >> > torque will be carried out further along the torque-speed curve.
>> >> >
>> >> > Wait there's more...
>> >> >
>> >> > The 305's have a case thats almost 3-1/2 inches (88mm) long. The
>> >> > 200's are 3 inches (76mm). That in itself "may" not be too bad; see
>> >> > my P.S. following this post!<G> BUT...
>> >> >
>> >> > The ROTOR INSIDE the motor is ALSO longer. More mass. Put simply,
>> >> > slower. (all else being equal. Which I've pointed out IS the likely
>> >> > case where the power supply voltage is concerned due to limits of
>> >> > the driver chip used.) Another thing which doesn't get much "press"
>> >> > her in the build-it-yourself CNC groips is soemthing called
>> >> > mechanical impedance matching. Which can be thought of simply as:
>> >> > putting a v8 on a bicycle "might" give you problems! You've got to
>> >> > match the driven load to the driving motor (AND its defining
>> >> > parameters like drive type, power supply voltage and such!) to get
>> >> > anywhere near the deisred and expected performance.
>> >> >
>> >> > And there's another thing called detent torque that we shold
>> >> > mention. This is the effect of the reidual magnetic force acting on
>> >> > the mechanical shape of the rotor and stator stampings inside the
>> >> > motor. It is higher for the longer motors, and its effect comes
>> >> > right off the top of your torque expectation. It could be
> likened to
>> >> > a magnetic "friction" that must alwyas be overcome. Shorter motors
>> >> > usually have smaller detent torque.
>> >> >
>> >> > These tow factors are part of why you've read of drives being
>> >> > adjusted for larger motor types. Their mass and mechanics are
>> >> > different and this directly affect the results.
>> >> > You won't see this mentioned when only holding oz-in is being held
>> >> > up as THE decision maker!
>> >> >
>> >> > The point of all this is to say: Don't just look at the biggest
>> >> > number oz.in. quoted to decide your purchase!!! There's a LOT more
>> >> > to good CNC machine design than simply "bigger is better".
>> >> >
>> >> > And I'm taking the time to type this because when someone comes out
>> >> > and says only, "Bigger motors, get 'em here!" MY job gets harder.
>> >> >
>> >> > Because then I! have to explain all the things above to OUR
>> >> > CNCresource customer who's hearing "bigger, better, bigger, better"
>> >> > in his or her mind due to the one-sided push of "Performance" sales
>> >> > being done by others in the DIY-CNC arena...
>> >> >
>> >> > Now let's be fair and explain exactly WHERE the 305's are gonna
> be a
>> >> > good choice. Where you need LOW speed torque. Please keep in mind
>> >> > that this is low speed AT THE MOTOR. You can have a very high speed
>> >> > machine that has low motor speed. Belt and rack/pinion driven axes
>> >> > are good examples. The tradeoff there is step size/ machine
>> >> > resolution.
>> >> >
>> >> > Folks who've seen my writings over the years know that I often talk
>> >> > about the "balance" of DIY-CNC design. It's fun for me to see the
>> >> > design evolution of many "home builds" over on "the zone"; where
>> >> > after MANY iterations they finally empirically arrive at what a
>> >> > balanced design approach will give in the first or second
>> >> > pass...
>> >> >
>> >> > Finally, let's mention that the bipolar drives offered by Xylotex
>> >> > trade increased performance due to drive type for lower power
> supply
>> >> > capability and lower amps/coil specs, compared to HCNC and
>> >> > CNCresource.com driver boxes. FWIW, Xylotex are great drives, and
>> >> > Jeff supports them well.
>> >> > The net effect is that all three perform similarly with similar
>> >> > sized motors. (I've run all three in our lab and the empirical
>> >> > results support this statement. There ARE ways to skew the results
>> >> > in favor of the unipolar drives; which is why we're currently
>> >> > offering the SLA based unipolar drives at CNCresource. We'll be
>> >> > adding some bipolar drive options this summer.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyways, hope this helps,
>> >> >
>> >> > Ballendo
>> >> >
>> >> > P.S. About those increasing motor lengths... thise of us in
> steppers
>> >> > used to expect that the motor body length would fall into roughly
>> >> > three lengths. We called these single, double and triple stack
>> >> > motors. This due to the fact that inside the rotor WAS divided into
>> >> > 1,2,or 3 distinct areas, or "stacks" of laminations. When the new
>> >> > range of Chinese motors came out; the old rules were blurred.
>> >> >
>> >> > Chinese mfrs. were "stretching" the "old" definition of what single
>> >> > stack and double stack meant... And pushing the holding torque
>> >> > number above all else...
>> >> > The first wave was sort of a stack and a half; then double stacks
>> >> > like the 200's. Now we're seeing triple stack motors being used in
>> >> > what were formerly "single stack" places. Because everybody's going
>> >> > after the "torque" by chasing the single HOLDING torque number, as
>> >> > explained above.
>> >> >
>> >> > Anyways, when I designed the Wood Duck CNC routers, we were using a
>> >> > 2-1/4" body length motor. Allowing for the "growth" I'd been
> seeing;
>> >> > I designed the machine to be capable of handling 2-3/4" bodied
>> >> > motors. Then the 3" motors hit the market. And everybody felt
>> >> > they "had to" have those (I've since re-designed to accomodate
>> >> > these, but I'm NOT going to keep adding just to "keep up with the
>> >> > Jones's"!<G> Especially when the "Jones's" is based on a partially
>> >> > explained truth... (We mfrs. are not operating in a vacuum, and we
>> >> > have to either educate or explain our competitors moves to our
>> >> > potential customers. Sometimes it's easier to just go with the
> flow.
>> >> > But there comes a time when the truth needs to be spoken.
>> >> >
>> >> > There's more to good CNC machine design than maximising oz-in
> in the
>> >> > motor spec! (FAR Better to maximise oz-in in the axis travels!) The
>> >> > two are NOT the same thing.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
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