Re: Sherline Auto Tool Changer (mill/drills too!)

Hi Again Ballendo;

I gave the CNC project a rest for a month so have not been very
active recently. Today I just mounted all the controllers onto
brackets on the CNC table.

I am still interested in this, I guess I would like to go one step
further, I can control the spindle on / off and speed thru MACH1
sucessfully now and it would be nice to have the ability to change
it's own tools.

I don't have too much of a problem with cost (as long as it's
reasonable), but what is your ball park estimates for going abou
this different ways, just a ball park is good enough.

I am ok with buying parts from Sherline, actually here in Singapore
I can buy any electronic components off the shelf witing 109 minutes
of my home, I can also get general materials and tools easily, but
the problem comes with specialized parts which are almost always
from the USA and cost a lot of money to ship here by air !

I would consider setting up shop to sell CNC related stuff here, but
I don't think there's the market (I know of only 1 other CNCer from
Singapore !).

If we went with air, would it definetly have to have a storeage
tank ??, these tend to be large and noisy (no just the valves but
the motor etc). Would a compressor pump without a streage tank be
ok ??

maybe you could draw a schematic of what you're thinking about, I am
no very good at initial design but am much better at development and
i understand that it's more difficult to start with a clean sheet of
paper than one with a prototype.

Look forward to your reply.

Cheers

PeterC






--- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo <ballendo@y...>"
<ballendo@y...> wrote:

> Peter,
>
> I'm leaning toward 6 tools for the sherline size. Yes, there can

be

> an all-electric model. It will be more complex, more expensive,

and

> slower. Most who have weighed inhave not had a problem with the

air

> that you do...
>
> Mach1, TurboCNC, EMC, Ah-ha artisan, and Flashcut can all be
> controllers (The common thread is their ability to make and use
> macros. Not saying that all are equally easy to use!<G>)
>
> Design? Carousel holder, direct to spindle via shuttle.
>
> The sherline fly cutter, boring head, and drill chuck present a

bit

> of a problem. Still working on it, but feel the changer has merit
> even if these tooltypes are excluded. The drills can be held in

split

> bushings, as in screw machines, and the fly cutter operation can

be

> somewhatovercome with a large endmill as one of the 6 tools;

leaving

> only the boring head as a real desirable item, IMO.
>
> Next question. If you could buy more parts (from sherline), you

will

> spend more, butneed to make less-- Would you considere this a good
> choice?
>
> Next, please rank the relative desirability of:
> A) speed of operation,
> B) cost
> C) ease of building (what skills will a builder plan to already

have?

>
> (I'm assuming he or she already has a CNC sherine<G>)
>
> And only one person so far (offlist) has mentioned anything

regarding

> price that includes a number!?! Come on, what would be a fair

price

> for the plans, kits, or parts?
> Designing in the absence of market realities and restraints won't
> help any of us get what we want. Except me<G>.
>
> Thank you to all who have responded so far,
>
> Ballendo
>
> P.S. An interesting note: Designing something to be built by many
> folks does not always result in a "much less expensive" product.
> Sometimes things will cost more(in time to design, or materials,

or

> actual work required of the builder) so that the lowest common
> denominator can have success; items which in a mfg. environment
> are "no-brainers" For instance, designing "around"/away from

welding

> (or air compressors<G>)
>
> --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Cruickshank
> <crankshaft_sg@y...>" <crankshaft_sg@y...> wrote:
> > Hi Ballendo;
> >
> > Well, if you ask for my wishlist it would be this..
> >
> > We are (all ??) hobyists, so to make it ourselves would be fun,
> > challenging and of course much cheaper, so I would of course opt
> for
> > the plan with the option to buy certain parts which we can't or
> > don't want to make !!
> >
> > I live in a small apartment in Singapore, and one thing I don't
> have
> > and can't have is an air compressor running in here, I would be

out-

> > of-here in minutes if I had compressor humming and vibrating my
> > neighbours, so air is out of the question for me unless it's a
> small
> > 12 volt compressor with no storeage cylinder !
> >
> > Other that that, a 3/8" shank, (well actually a 10mm shank for
> > everyone but the US !) would be more than adequate for the

sherline

> > and the work which will go through it.
> >
> > 8 Tools is more than enough, 6 would be enough for me, I could
> > probably get away with less than that if it were to simplify or
> > reduce the cost !
> >
> > Hope that helps, I understand that you may want to protect your
> > design, but I would be interested how generically you have

planned

> > to go about this ??
> >
> > Cheers !
> >
> > peterC
> >
> > --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo

<ballendo@y...>"

> > <ballendo@y...> wrote:
> > > Peter,Sherline CNC'ers, mill/drill CNC'ers,
> > >
> > > I've got one worked out that I'm positive will work. Not too
> > > difficult to make, either...
> > >
> > > Now I'm wondering what someone would be willing to pay for an

8

> > tool
> > > autochanger for the sherline 5000 series mills? Is 8 tools
> enough?
> > >
> > > Max diameter of toolshank is 1/2, but limiting this to 3/8

would

> > > prob'ly make things less expensive overall. Is 3/8 shank
> > limitation
> > > okay? Or must 1/2 shank tools be accomodated? What (shank)size
> > > holders do you NEED?
> > >
> > > Shop air would be needed, so is requiring an air compressor

okay?

> > >
> > > Do you want to buy it complete, or make it from plans/kit?
> > >
> > > What would you be willing to pay for a complete, bolt on unit?
> > > A kit of parts?
> > > Plans?
> > > Which of these three options is most "real" for you?
> > >
> > >
> > > If you make it, you will need the sherline lathe also (or some
> > other
> > > lathe of similar capability) Is this going to be a problem? If
> so,
> > > would you be interested if the kit had the lathe parts already
> > made?
> > >
> > > BTW, no mods to the mill need be made... This is a bolt-on-and-

go

> > > item.
> > >
> > > The unit I have designed will scale to mill/drill operation as
> > well:
> > >
> > > Same questions as above, but max shank diameter can easily be
> 1/2.
> > Is
> > > 5/8 necessary ?
> > >
> > > The lathe parts could probably still be made on a sherline,

but a

> > 7x
> > > or 9x size would make things easier...
> > >
> > > So sherline and Mill/drill users, please let me know what your
> > > answers to these questions are???
> > >
> > > Thank you in advance,
> > >
> > > Ballendo
> > >
> > > P.S. Reply offlist, if you want to preserve your "lurk status"
> > here<G>
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "Peter Cruickshank
> > > <crankshaft_sg@y...>" <crankshaft_sg@y...> wrote:
> > > > Ballendo;
> > > >
> > > > Now, we're getting somewhere !
> > > >
> > > > Hmm, you're right, the sherline collet is 'handy' cos it

ready

> > made
> > > > and seems like the logical choice, but the spindle locking

and

> > > > undoing the holder is a problem, you're right that it would

be

> > very
> > > > difficult to undo, that was at the back of my mind, I guess

I

> > just
> > > > did not want to acknowledge it !!!
> > > >
> > > > The current morse 1 taper limits the collet and cutter size

as

> > it
> > > > assumes that the cutter will locate inside the spindle, but
> > there's
> > > > no reason why an adaptor can not fit on the end on the

spindle

> > and
> > > > interface to a quick change tool, I think there would still

be

> > > > sufficient Z travel even with an adaptor on the end of the
> > spindle.
> > > >
> > > > We have gone through the first rule of troubleshooting which

is

> > to
> > > > elimante what it isn't (can't be done) now we only have to

find

> > > what
> > > > can - so it should be plain sailing from here on in :-)
> > > >
> > > > PeterC
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "ballendo
> > <ballendo@y...>"
> > > > <ballendo@y...> wrote:
> > > > > Terry,
> > > > >
> > > > > Most fully automatic changers use a similar technique.
> > > > >
> > > > > Tools are held in vee-shaped non locking single taper
> holders.
> > > > There
> > > > > is a retention knob at the top of the holder, which is the
> > small
> > > > end
> > > > > of the vee shape. Fingers inside the spindle are designed

to

> > > > capture
> > > > > this knob and pull it upward (often using belleville

washers

> > for
> > > > > the "drawing in" force). The interior of the spindle is
> shaped
> > so
> > > > > that thes fingers lock in a failsafe way (as long as the
> > > retention
> > > > > knob doesn't break of where it screws into the holder...

Yes,

> > it
> > > > > happens).
> > > > >
> > > > > To change tools, hydraulic or air pressure is used to
> compress
> > > the
> > > > > belleville washers, which drops the fingers a bit, which
> > allows
> > > > them
> > > > > to come out of the failsafe recess, which lets them

release

> > the
> > > > > retention knob, which allows the holder to drop out (into

a

> > > > > waiting "transfer arm", or into the lazy susan itself.
> > > > >
> > > > > Hope this makes sense,
> > > > >
> > > > > Ballendo
> > > > >
> > > > > P.S. Do a search of "CAT 40 holder", to see one of these
> > holders
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In CAD_CAM_EDM_DRO@yahoogroups.com, "James Owens"
> > > > > <wotisname@l...> wrote:
> > > > > > Hi Peter,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > This is the bit I'm asking about. I'm a where how manual
> > change
> > > > > millers hold
> > > > > > the tooling/holder in place. I have a Bridgeport type
> > machine.
> > > > The
> > > > > question
> > > > > > is how do auto-changers, when they are fully automatic,
> hold
> > > the
> > > > > tooling in
> > > > > > the spindle. I can change a tool in a few seconds but I
> have
> > to
> > > > be
> > > > > there to
> > > > > > do it. So if it is necessary for me to tighten a draw-

bar

> > why
> > > > use an
> > > > > > auto-changer when the tooling held in a lazy-susan would

do?

> > > > > >
> > > > > > > The sherline tool holder simply screws into the

spindle

> on
> > a
> > > > high
> > > > > > > precision thread & shoulder. There's a 3mm hole in the
> > tool
> > > > holder
> > > > > > > which allows you to locate in the holder to unscrew

it.

> > > > Sherline
> > > > > > > claim that as the thread and location hole for the

cutter

> > > > shank
> > > > > are
> > > > > > > created without removing the piece from the machine,

that

> > the
> > > > > > > accuracy is very high !
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I know that full size CNCs use a draw bar to pull the
> tool
> > > > holder
> > > > > up
> > > > > > > against the taper and locate it onto a dog, but I am
> > trying
> > > to
> > > > > think
> > > > > > > of a way of using the existing available stuff.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Another way would be to make an adaptor to fit the
> Spindle
> > > and
> > > > > then
> > > > > > > make special tool holders to fit the adaptor.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Regards,
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Terry